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With Ron Monestime

RON:
Hello Florin! How are you doing? I recently came across an evangelist’s rendering of Dan 8:14 which I thought you’d find interesting. (Perhaps you are already aware of it). It is from Evangelist Herb Kersten of Australia, and he says that Roy Gane of the Andrews SDA Seminary backs up that rendering. Kersten says that Dan 8:14 should read as:
“Unto 2300 days and then holiness will be justified” meaning “God’s holiness will be justified”.
Since e.g. „qodesh” does not have a definite article in the Hebrew.  You can view his presentations here on this here:
My understanding of that verse in context, even if “holiness” is a more accurate reading than “sanctuary”, is that it is all of the desecrations cited just prior to that in Dan 8:10-12 by the Little Horn power to various aspects of God’s Sanctuary/Temple, both in Heaven, and on Earth (=the Church -2 Thess 2:4), and within His People (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19) as well as hinderingly towards God’s ministering “stars/host” (=angels) (Heb 1:7) that will have to ‘be “made holy/sacred” again’ = “be set aright”. Meaning back to how they consecratedly were before, pointedly by the triumph of the also ‘cast down Truth’ (Dan 8:12; cf. John 17:17)
So to me that is still not that much of a different understanding than the “sanctuary shall be cleansed” reading, though the “holiness will be set aright” reading does speak of more broader restorations than just a Sanctuary itself, but indeed all of what had been overturned and made unholy by the permitted Little Horn reign. That indeed fully answers the question in Dan 8:13leading to that response in Dan 8:14.
I think that Kersten’s take about merely “judgement” and ‘God’s holiness being vindicated’ is also included in such restoring/“cleansing” acts, but they are not the primary focus of what Dan 8:14 is speaking about, but just a secondary result of having restored all of those prior desecrations.
That’s my view on this. Perhaps it can be helpful for posting on your Dan 8:14 website!
 
 Florin Laiu:
Dear Ron, it is a good suprise for me to receive a message from you.

Your quest about the meaning of qodesh in Daniel 8:14 is not new for me. I know the position of Herb Kersten. Actually, I found him on the web and then we had a good email dialog. Herb agrees with my position on nitsdaq, but I do not remember if I have discussed with him about the qodesh. The Austrian Professor Martin Proebstle, in his massive PhD thesis (stil unpublished) studies the term qodesh also. It is probably the largest linguistic investigation on Daniel 8:9-14 in the SDA history.It is easy to recognize the large semantic field of the term qodesh (= holiness, anything holy, holy things), which is especially used in the Pentateuch. Most frequently the term is used adjectivally (holy); but in various cases, contextually noticeable, the term means ”holy place” (sanctuary or sanctum). This last meaning is used to designate the whole sanctuary, or the first apartment (when the second one is called qodesh qodashim ”most holy”), and even the second appartment (if the first one is called ohel mo‘ed ”tent of meeting”, as it is the case in Leviticus 16, which I think it is also reflected in Hebrews 9).

It is known that qodesh and miqdash are synonyms in many instances:
Regarding Daniel 8:14, I’m inclined to understand qodesh as a synonym for miqdash. Daniel uses synonyms in the same context (e.g. hazon and mar’eh for vision/prophecy). This is my reason:

A v. 10 host / stars, trampled underfoot v. 13  qodesh and host – trampled underfoot  A’
 

B

v. 11 His residence, the miqdash was ”cast down” (despised)  

v. 14  qodesh will be vindicated

 

B’

Thus, if the qodesh of v. 13 refers to the miqdash of v. 11, as it appears from the text, then the qodesh to be vindicated in v. 14 is the miqdash-residence of v. 11, that is the qodesh of v. 13. Actually, there is evidence in Da 9:26 that he used the term qodesh for sanctuary / temple, as a synonym for miqdash (Dan 9:17; 11:31).

However, when we compare the answer in v. 14 to the question of v. 13, it becomes clear that qodesh in v. 14 stands, as a synecdoche for the whole belongings of the sanctuary (its altar for tamid, its host, its Captain, its truth), that is all those things that had been made injustice in v. 13.

Thus, practically, my solution comes close to Herb’s, but linguistically and literary, I have another justification. Most important, I believe that the vindication (justification) of the qodesh is the equivalent of the judgment and vindication in Dan 7:22 and in Rev 6:9:11 – see the same question

[”until then?”], and the justifying judgment anwser.

 RON:
Thank you very much for your great answer. It strongly supports and clarifies that rendering of „sanctuary” is a most acceptable one, and thus also the related term of „cleansed”. As you say, these terms are being stated as inclusive of all of what had been made wrong in the prior verses. But the focal point of ‘all of these holy things’ is the „sanctuary”, where indeed they are all based/centered/”headquartered”.
Relatedly, it is quite fitting that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has virtually built up an entire rivaling „sanctuary” I their Church System and its priesthood and liturgical practices. Indeed the RCC has effectively recreated the Old Testament Priesthood & Sanctuary system in their Church/Cultic Organization.
Given how the Remnant are the only ones who understand this pivotal, and indeed „(variously) sanctifying” truth, it is an imperative to get Dan 8:14 and its message right and to put it beyond any attempted refutation. And including all of the valid understandings (also from Kersten’s contribution) for what is involved in Dan 8:14 from its context greatly helps in this regard. Glad to hear the major scholarly studies on this issue are in the works.
…Do feel free to copy my comment there and post it in any pertinent section of your other website’s forum. The answer you emailed me would be a great follow up post, for those out there like me who were somewhat impressed by Herb Kersten’s (+Roy Gane’s) translation and conclusion. Kersten’s contribution is indeed somewhat misleading as it is only focusing on one part of the whole.
———–
On a completely different, but really relatable issue, I had seen that you had engaged a certain Eugene Shubert on his website/forum back in 2002/2003, on Dan 8 and also his „Multiple Prophetic Scenario” claim.* In 2013 I also had a discussion with Shubert on that latter topic/claim of his and other issues, such as about Ernie Knoll.** Perhaps you may understand and appreciate the, to me, significant Biblical conclusion that I came to about Eugene Shubert. In short, I actually found his claims of having had prophetic dreams to be Biblically valid, however, upon examining his dreams, I found it quite odd, but telling, that none of the 5 major dreams that he has shared*** actually end up being as favorable or commending of him and his course as he thought. To me it became quite consistently evident that he is just like a new John Harvey Kellogg who ended up blazing the way for an Alpha Apostasy (and not a pioneering „New William Miller” that Shubert claims/thinks to be). And the confirming proof to me came in the „True Three Angels Gospel/Message” that Shubert preaches*4* which is actually surfacely plausible in how they expose the tangible abuses that (Protestant/Capitalistic) Babylon inflicts on the world, but is still false in its proposed remedy which basically is to ‘return to the days of founding America’. This American/Babylonian solution for an American/Babylonian problem is effectively like Satan „healing” the diseases that he had caused, all to so deludingly lead people to still worship him. I expose Shubert’s „Spurious and Omega Three Angels Message” on my blog.*5*
Given how I have seen that Shubert’s dream in themselves were valid revelations from God (but which all spoke against him and his stance), I kept wondering why God would go through so much effort to try to correct Shubert. Well given the „fuller Sabbatical”*6* implications that I am seeing about the Three Angel’s Messages, especially the Third (= Fourth (Rev 18)), there very well may be a day when Shubert’s claim may be seen by many unsuspecting people as a valid message, and therefore many would be led astray to a false solution. 
This is all like Kellogg’s Living Temple message was potentially plausible to many, especially SDA’s and God instructed EGW to „MEET IT”, i.e. that false message. In fact, as SDA „Medical Missionary” worker Dave Fielder reports in his presentations,*7* Kellogg actually had the truth in regards to Medical Missionary work (=Isa 58),*8* as EGW herself saw, but he let himself go completely way off course when he was opposed by the Church’s ministers.
…I just thought you may find all of these added details/implications and evaluation about/of Eugene Shubert and his (claimed prophetic) ministry interesting.


FLORIN:
Yes, I remember having posted some comments on Schubert s forum years ago. I do not know anything of his prophetic charisma, and believe me, I am not interested in searching for the validity of Schuberts, Knolls, Beaulieus, Sautrons, Soos or any other claiming prophet. This is the job of the administration. If the experienced Brethren do not see the divine spark in these ”prophets” mission, we may safely ignore them. We SDA had one valid prophet, but tooooo many false prophets in US and abroad. Let them die out of lack of consideration.
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  1. Hello Florin. This is just to inform you, -and as per our discussion earlier on an issue (on May 18, 2016 03:23 = Comment #3273): I have posted a draft of my full book on the 70 Weeks Prophecy Interpretation&Chronology. The issue of the Date of Christ’s Statement in John 2:20, in relation to the rebuilding of the Temple, is discussed in the Fifteenth Year Chapter.

  2. By the way Florin, Jeremiah 7 is a most solemn and crucial counsel for the SDA Leadership/Church (=God’s Spiritual “Judah” of Rev 7:5a) to read and heed (cf. PK 412.2ff; COL 291.2) because, as the SOP also says: ‘when “the Church is in its Laodicean state’, indeed by systemically condoning and practicing “lukewarm” waywardness (=1 Kgs 18:21) and refusing to “zealously” repent and reform itself (Rev 3:15-18), “the presence of God is not in her midst”’ (LDE 49.1)

  3. Also Florin, as, what I think/see is, a most compelling example of why the evaluation and determination of claims of prophetic revelations/gift in the SDA Church should not be left to the judgement of, as typical, merely a handful of people, and also merely at a local church and/or conference level:

    In 1881, a little over one month after her husband died, EGW* had a dream where she saw and converse with her resurrected husband. (See RY 161.1-163.2|10MR 38.2-40.1). And even “worse, EGW acted upon the counsel given to her by James in that dream and decided not to travel and attend the upcoming General Conference, and also cut way back on traveling in her future ministering. Now as “speaking to the dead” clearly contradicted what SDAs, even to this day, most crucially believe about the State of the Dead, that should have been completely rejected (=1 Thess 5:21) as not being an inspired/prophetic revelation and also EGW’s heeding of it and changing her ministering should have been considered as having listened to Satanic counsel…but it wasn’t, nor it still isn’t, by SDA’s.

    * EGW, by the way, -I must say in response to an argument you had made earlier (in: 12/05/2016 at 23:33) that: ‘EGW’s prophetic calling was also validated by the fact that she was married to a GC President’: EGW prophetic visions and ministry began long before James White became (the first) SDA GC President in 1865. In fact it began even before EGW married James in 1846…and given the fact that she considered, manifestly restrospectively/retroactively, two dreams that she had had in 1842 (See EW 11.3-13.1; 78.3-81.1) as being of a Divine source and thus prophetic, her prophetic Spiritual gifting and calling therefore began even before she probably ever met James White in ca. 1844.

    But, as I have discovered in my study on this issue, the truth of this matter is seen in the wider contexting fact that the Bible, and also the SOP, (i.e. as seen in some of EGW’s other direct revelations/visions), teach that God has a special reward for people who have been, either physically, or, effectively “martyred”, as it was the case with the sickly and fatally overburdened James White. This special reward for martyrs is that they are resurrected early, at some appropriate time after their death and are taken to Heaven. So EGW was actually not speaking to a person who was dead, by someone who, (like the also effectively martyred) Moses (Matt 17:3ff), had been resurrected early. So that was the hidden/concealed Truth, and “New Light” in that experience of EGW.

    And that indeed is key because God will typically not limit the content of prophetic revelations and visions to merely a restating of already known/understood light, but, as seen many times in the revelations of EGW, He will impart New Light then. The key to coming to a proper judgement of these prophetic claims is to see if the “New Light” is contradicting the “Old/Prior Light”. And that can take a very comprehensive contextual study, (as seen in the Ministry of Christ and His Apostles when they had to preach the New Covenant.).* -EGW’s infamous “Shut Door” proclamation which she authoritatively/prophetically spoke in support of is also resolved by a Spiritually comprehensive study of it.

    * Relatedly, similar to the argument that you are making against Knoll, in a discussion with a Jewish Rabbi, he was arguing that Jesus could be the Messiah because He was not openly, widely, clearly and strikingly manifested to Israel by God as was Moses when delivering their National Covenant (e.g. Luke 3:21-22; John 12:27-30ff versus Exod 19:18-20:17)…Well the short answer is that the People in Moses’ day had clearly told God to ‘not speak to them like that again’ (Exod 20:18-21ff)…and God saw that this was indeed best for them. (Deut 18:16-17)..So when Jesus fulfilled that prophecy of “another prophet like Moses” (Deut 18:15-19ff), it was indeed most Biblical to not come on the scene like Moses had, even for the OT prophesied New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34).

    Likewise, my understanding is that SDA’s today are, as many have noticed, indeed living in indifferent rebellion toward God’s already clearly revealed will and mandate for them, so, as God stated in Ezek 14:1-7, He will not grace and honor such rebellion with clear prophetic revelation and even if He would choose to send his wayward people a prophet….Hence the objectionable ministry of Ernie Knoll and other SDA (half-)prophets. (And these prophets actually have to be careful to not speak “presumptuously” (Deut 18:20-22) as they are indeed prone to do, especially for the ones who are Biblical novices)

    So that is all why that task of Prophetic Evaluation cannot be left to novices. The counseled “brethren of experience” must be comprehensively experienced, competent and knowledge in Biblical and Spiritual matters, including discernment, and having such a competent group is best done by getting together as many such deemed Church Leaders/Members as possible…instead of the current SDA approach of, typically, a couple of local leaders.*

    * Telling enough, Ernie Knoll was actually only resolutely rejected by the SDA Church when he said that ‘the angel in his dream said that the tithe did not have to be only given to local churches/conferences’….That actually to be proven to be a Biblical counsel which EGW herself went by. So it was really various pertinent incompetence by SDA leaders which has led to Ernie Knoll being corporately rejected.

    • Please, Ron, if you want someone to read what you write, don’t write so long comments. I’m tired. I suppose both you and me have various jobs to do. Do you are day and night online?
      Yes, I know that dream of Ellen White, where James gave her instructions. But please note, that it was a prophetic dream, not an En-Dor consultation. In prophetic visions. Ellen White also met in vision in Paradise the Methodist pastors Fitch and Stockman (who have recently died), and in other visions she saw Adam and Eve, the Prophets, the Apostles etc. John saw in Revelation 6 the souls of those who had been beheaded for their faith in Christ, crying out and receiving the Divine answer. Visions or dreams are not actual visits or real meetings. All the imagery and characters in a vision are as unreal as the shades parading on a screen. They are supernaturally given by God to prophets, as a didactic means only. Many of them are only symbols. God chose to send EGW a message through the most sensitive way. I can’t see any problem with this dream. Thus it is not necessary to conclude that James had been already resurrected and taken to heaven. The special resurrection (Dan 12:1-2) will happen in the time of trouble, immediately before Jesus will be seen coming on the clouds. Thus EGW taught.
      Ron, I don’t say that EGW’s prophetic call is validated by the fact that she was married to a GC President. I know that she had visions before. But she did not issue a proper magazine or whatever paper, to publish her visions. There was at least one famous Adventist (Millerite) editor who published her visions, and James began to travel with her quite soon, before they were married. Had she not been launched by James, I think would have been more difficult for her to fight with the Millerite unbelief in the prophetic gift. Her dreams before 1844 should not be counted as prophetic revelations, because they have been only for her. If God gives you even a vision, for personal instruction or comfort, this does not mean you are now a new prophet for the Church. God may send personal messages to many people today in the world, but this is not about the gift of prophecy.
      Regarding Knoll’s message about tithing, it is obviously about his own profit, therefore it was so „illuminating” for the Church leaders. I do not think things are so complicated, that it should take a large theological council to waste time in sifting and analyzing Knoll’s dreams.

      • Sorry for the long postings Florin. I’ll do my best to keep them as succinct as possible. I have been trying to best contextualized the views & reasons that I express here, which are mainly a summarizing restatement of what I have already studied out and presented on my blog. I didn’t want it to seem that I was just making claims without any Biblical basis. So for now on, if anyone needs to see that backing context, do see the links to those studies that I provide.

        Also I do not actually expect, nor require, an immediate response to my comments here. You can respond at your best convenience and available time, as online discussion beneficially allows for. (We are also on a ca. 6 hours difference in term of Time Zone (i.e. Eastern Canada vs. Romania). I do have other Biblical Research tasks to see to, but I do make time for constructive Biblical discussions.

        I have to say that your explanation about EGW, indeed prophetic, dream about her husband James White is the most plausible that I myself have read from an SDA. (I had found the ‘prominent/leading’, extended response [Note #3] by SOP specialist at Southern Adventist Univ. Jud Lake to ‘quibblingly be most pathetic’.). However I am not seeing that your examples of Fitch+Stockman, and Adam provide a proper resolution. That is because: though Fitch&Stockman had recently died, their appearance in EGW’s dream was in a post Second Coming, thus post-resurrection of the dead, context. (EW 16.1; 17.1 (298.3-5)). The same thing goes for EGW seeing Adam & Eve in vision, which I assume you are referring to the one at the end of GC at pp. 644.2-3. I am not sure precisely what other visions you have in mind for ‘the Prophets and Apostles that EGW saw’, but I would only see a valid a vision where they appear in a pre-Second Coming context and also which is not an episode of theirs which had already transpired in history. (E.g. Elijah on Mount Carmel). If any of these Bible people, -and especially who are not explicitly said to have been resurrected, appear in a pre-SC context and are giving counsels to EGW, or even stating something that they have not actually said in the Bible, then that would be a resolving explanation to me. (Enoch and his extra-Biblical statement in EW 39.3 (-discussed here) does not qualify as the Bible is already clear that God took him to Heaven alive.)

        Now that of course is not at all the case/context with James White in that dream. It occurs before the Second Coming which is why I think EGW initially objects so much. Plus he oddly seemed ‘so real’ to her, as if he was (indeed) more than just a mere forms/representation. (Relatedly, more generally my studied-out view based on Isa 46:9-11 which specifically says that God (most Wisely) declares what He plans/expects the future to be, is that all future depictions in prophetic visions are not actual realities, but mere representations, as the future has not yet actually occurred. God then acts to bring about what He had ‘prophetically planned’.)

        About the ‘souls/psyches under the altar’ in Rev 6:9-11, succinctly and summarily said: my studies on, and related to, this issue has led me to see that, as they are also given robes to wear (Rev 6:10), this is also speaking of bodily, thus fully, resurrected people who had been crushed by Roman Catholic persecutions during Church History. But the main focus of Rev 6:9-11 is on their psyche/spirit (a.k.a. “soul”) which is crying out for vengeance on the Beast Power. And that this will be done when God takes these psyches/spirits/mindsets, -which has been developed by these martyrs to be full of faith (cf. Luke 18:8) and self-sacrificial (cf. Rev 12:11), and that God has been able to salvage and preserve by the resurrection of these martyrs, and sends them back to earth as the Latter Rain outpouring where, as it was done for Elisha and John the Baptist (Luke 1:15-17), this ideal Spirit of these martyrs will be mercifully (cf. Luke 18:8) bestowed (even as a double portion) upon people on Earth who are validly seeking this blessing in order to effectuate the Loud Cry of Rev 18:1ff.

        And as discussed here, I have also Biblically/Exegetically seen that Rev 20:4 deliberately does not involve the resurrection of the Righteous or Wicked Dead. Only the “psyches/spirit/“souls”“ of the martyrs are brought back to like to join those who had been victorious over the Mark of the Beast. That is where I am seeing that the “Latter Rain” spirit of the martyrs will have been bestowed on faithful ones on Earth all in order to effectuate God’s “Plan A” Jubilee-Millennium Plan. (cf. EW 286.1). The Millennium Scenario shown to EGW in vision is actually God’s “Emergency Rescue” Plan B, in case this tangible/temporal Plan A was completely hindered by the Mark of the Beast camp.

        Dan 12:2 is indeed validly understood to be speaking of a Special vs. General resurrection, and really only because of the exegetical fact that is says “a great many of the dead”, righteous and wicked, will be resurrected then, but not “all of the dead”. (cf. GC 637.1). But I am also seeing that that resurrection will first have a spiritual application under “God’s Plan A” Scenario where it is the “Spiritually dead (=blind)” (cf. Eph 2:1ff…-and whose life and ideal end is in the Gospel and its good works (Eph 2:8-10) some Righteous, some Wicked who will be resurrected by being given a special awakening to God’s Truth. The Righteous will be delighted and blessed (by the Latter Rain Outpouring) while the Unrighteous will too late “terrifyingly” see the evidence of the wrongness of their course. (=Rev 6:15-17)

        So that all informs me that the understanding about a special reward for those who are martyred is a valid, albeit “hidden”, truth in the Bible….It indeed helps to resolve many key/problematic issues in the Bible and SOP. (E.g., as I cite and discuss in my study, EGW variously did see in her visions the martyrs (along with “little ones” e.g. aborted infants, -who she clearly had not seen/met before while traveling to the Holy City with that rest of the saints, already being in Heaven before the group of the Living/Resurrected Saints arrive. (e.g. EW 18.2)).

        Although EGW was indeed greatly aided by James and other Early Adventist endorsing and supporting her ministry, including overcoming the objections to her being a woman (which is why God first twice sought to have a male prophet), I don’t see these mainly external qualification evaluations as applying to e.g. Ernie Knoll. Again, he was a Elder in the Church. His wife (likewise) testifies, endorses and supports his claims and his ministry, and many other (close) people have accepted his as a valid/true prophet. Again the actual hard evidence is all in the Biblicalness of the substance of the message, and not in mere externals and signs….And Ernie Knoll has substantively not said anything that SDAs do not also either believe or profess to believe (but do not practice).

        As seen in this study, I have seen that EGW later came to realize that the very first dream she had back in 1842 actually had (a secondary/wider) application for the Church, and in relation to the pivotal episode of Rev 5 (as well as Rev 3:7-12) which she then saw as having eschatological fulfillment/implication. So it was more than a personal, (though tellingly enough, highly symbolic) dream which seemed to be warning her of the peril of delaying or not joining the Millerite movement. It is (also) a general prophecy which to this day has implications about joining God’s Philadelphia Age Church.

        EGW’s subsequent dream about ‘faith as a green cord’ may be considered as a personal one, but that is a Spiritual trait and lesson that has wider application to other believers. As stated here, I am seeing that those two initial dreams also served to get EGW ready to become the prophet to the Remnant as God saw or expected that his other choices of, and efforts with, Foy and Foss would not pan out.

        In my own visionary experience, as commentingly discussed here, I was not burdened with ‘standing as a prophet with/in the Church’. Like Paul, my ministry calling was primarily towards non-SDA Christians, though, also like Paul with Jews, I do still engage SDAs. The revelations that I have received have served to help me in studying out and realizing the movement which, as warned of in the SOP (LDE 59-61), could, now will, -in its due time, replace and supercede what the cleared failed, indeed “spewed” (Rev 3:16), indifferently “Lukewarm” SDA Church has done and not done. (cf. 15MR 292.3-4). It is easy to distinguish a personal message with one that (also) has wider, or even secondary, application to other Believers (=the Church)….And in the case of Knoll, I think that issue is non-ambiguously resolved in just the name that he was told should give his ministry: “For My People”.

        I do not see in my examination, that Knoll tithing message was ‘all in order to profit himself’. As I state there, EGW had the very same message of freely supporting any ministry with the tithe and offering and not solely a local conference, (and she did in regards to her son working in the neglected American South amongst Black People). SDA leaders today were incompetent in not knowing that that message was perfectly in line with the SOP and so they came to the completely unbiblical decision there, and with Knoll in general.

        Again, it will require a most competent “body of experienced leaders/members” to examine prophetic claims in the SDA Church, and again for the very reason that the SDA Church is, as I have variously exemplified and substantiated here and on my blog, most obviously, (as anyone can readily/strikingly observe -see e.g. Ingo Sorke below [at 14/05/2016 10:08]) in no position to receive any better/clearer prophetic message or treatment by God than that Ezek 14:1-7 template. Indeed the SDA Church has idolatrously cherished an idol where their pastors and leaders are allowed to preach and claim whatever they think is right in their own eyes, and thus confused the laity (=Ezek 34:1-22; cf. EW 36.2)*, therefore God has remonstratingly given them at best confusing to them, prophetic messages which they will indeed have to painstakingly sift through in order to find the Truth. They likewise do effectively leave simple lay members to have to do their work of painstaking Biblical research if they are going to make light of anything valid that a pastor/preacher may claim in the pulpit. Also, for a Church with over 110 Universities, there is absolutely no excuse that anyone be given Pastor/Preaching/Teaching credentials who is actually not competent in Biblical exegesis. Allowing preachers to novicely claim whatever they think is true only confuses the Church and muffles the Trumpet that it suppose to clearly and loudly sound.

        * As a example, I just finished to frustratingly hear a sermon from someone that I consider to be the very worst SDA Preacher given how his sermons are patently just whimsical surface “Bible Code” like claims which mostly do not pass the test of Biblical exegesis, nor do they mostly not pass the Spiritual connection claims that he is makes. E.g. in that sermon [at 49:55-53:40] itself, he claimed that the 46 Years in John 2:20 had a Spiritual connection to the 46 years between 1798 AD and 1844!!! (a) John 2:20 exegetically said that: “the Sanctuary had stood built for 46 years” and (b) that Temple had been rebuild since the immediate post-Exilic days of Zechariah & Haggai, and the edifice in Christ’s day was merely a renovating reconstruction. So there is nothing substantive there to “connect”.
        Same thing goes for another terrible SDA Preacher who claims, among other things, that God will not burn the wicked alive in Hell, practicing homosexuality is perfectly acceptable by God…since people are born that way, and no one actually has to go to Church to observe the Sabbath…but just take the day off. And even when his superiors are aware of these heresies, no concrete disciplinary action has been taken against him. The Church indeed had preferred Gospel Disorder, and also made Money its God. E.g. that PUC Chaplain preacher’s “Adam and Steve” sermon on homosexuality was only pulled from the PUC website when parents started saying that they would pull their children from that College.

        So in summary, the Church will most deservingly not get any better prophetic ministry and guiding and/or supplemental light than what God has thus far through these (half)prophets and they will indeed have to take the time and great effort to properly figure them out. And in many ways, through these prophets who are mainly just saying things that SDAs claim to believe in, God is actually candidly, but bindingly, testing these, clearly merely empty/“mere talk”, professions of SDAs. (=Isa 28:9-16; cf. Matt 15:7-9). SDA have indeed ‘(effectively) made void the law of God’ (Matt 15:6) through the Capitalistic ways in which they idolatrously much more preferred to faithlessly try to conduct and finish the work of God. (That, btw, was/is David Gates’ own (effective [though not perfect]) prophetic message and ministry to SDA)

        …Sorry again for how long this response came to be. I tried to keep it succinct but indeed much that needs to be qualifyingly and contextually also say. Like I said, you can answer at the best of your convenience. I don’t expect/require quick replies.

        • You have written so many informations, Ron. I would comment just a little. If I understood well, you wrote that the 46 years mentioned in John 2 refer to the time of Zechariah? I cannot see where these 46 years fit in that scenario. The standard explanation is that Jesus speaks of the temple standing in front of Him, which was roughly built/rebuilt by Herod the Great. Herod did not finish the building work (actually it was finished short before its destruction in 70 AD). If you follow Josephus, who gives the year when Herod began to build, you count 46 years until the year 28 AD, a date that confirms the prophecy of Daniel 9. It is possible to have the Baptism of Jesus in John 1 in the fall of 27 AD, and in the next spring (John 2) the temple cleansing by Jesus.

          I have found on your blog the following:
          ”God now, as of April 21, 2012, officially/formally has a New Remnant Church: the Fellowship of Sabbatarian Zionist Christianaires, which is His always, and presciently-so, planned, Church Militant superceding, Church Triumphant.”

          I do not find the word CHRISTIANAIR to be English, nor the name of this new denomination on the web. Is this just an association of 12 fishermen?

          • I do understand Florin that my answers are long and time demanding on your part. I am trying to most completely, yet still succinctly, make my point. (I do come from the “school” of the late Dr. Bacchiocchi who kept telling us proverbially in classes that: “You do not want to shoot a dead horse twice” meaning of course: ‘You want to get the job done right the first time’.) But like I said you can take as long as it is convenient for you to respond, or even read, what I have posted…You can even answer points, as well as prior ones whenever you have the chance.

            -You actually misunderstood my point about 28 A.D and the Temple. First of all, I was generally saying that that (worst of all) SDA Preacher claiming that 46 years of building referred to the rebuilding of Herod was substantively vacuous as it was only the edifice of the Temple which was being remodelled. Herod/Israel did not then substantively change anything to their Religious Economy. So the Sanctuary system itself had been around since the Days of Zecheriah and not merely Herod…. So I don’t see that that can be claimed to have any Spiritual parallel or implication to the years 1798 to 1844 as that Pastor claims. As usual, these are whimsical/”cotton candy” claims which begin and end in nothing Spiritually true, let alone worthwhile.

            (Like most non-SDA-college educated/trained pastors, these effective lay pastors/preachers typically/patently try to impress their audiences with such surface claimed associations and “new discoveries”. -E.g. Doug Batchelor and Peter Gregory also, at least more frequently earlier on, do the same thing. Fact is much more can be discovered and, concretely, thus truthfully so, from (proper) exegesis.)

            As for my more technical point, I have thoroughly studied and written about this issue of the Temple rebuilding for my 70 Weeks work. The exegetical fact is that John 2:20 refers to the Sanctuary proper (=Greek naos) and not to the whole/surrounding Temple Mount’s Complex/Courts (=Greek hieron) which itself is what took up until a few years before 70 AD to complete. In fact, as seen in Josephus, the Jews were extremely leery that Herod’s rebuilding proposal would destroy their Sanctuary and take too long to rebuild it, so to appease their fears, he had all of the building materials for it gathered in advanced and then they were confident to let him do the task…which took 1.5 years and ended on/around October 14, 19 B.C. So the Sanctuary (=naos) itself was completed/built since that time….and as the Greek of John 2:20 actually said for the word “built” by using an Aorist, the Jews were (albeit non-sequiturly, as typical from them when answering Jesus) pointing out to Jesus that ‘the Sanctuary that He was (apparently) claiming to want to destroy and rebuild in 3 days was so well built that it had “stood built” for (now) 46 years.’

            Now, relatedly, my latest studies (seen in my post on the 70 Weeks), have shown that, based on the strict post-wilderness days chronology in John 1&2 (also in the SOP e.g. DA) , Jesus could not have been baptized in the Fall of 27 AD as commonly assumed/claimed by SDAs. Even EGW says that it was merely ca. 2 months between Christ’s seeing Mary from the time He left for His baptism to his re-appearance at the Cana Wedding. Plus, the proper/exegetical understanding and historical/chronological reckoning of Luke’s datum in Luke 3:1 corroboratingly can have a baptism date sometime in January 28 AD. [I.e. Tiberius had officially become co-regent of Augustus, fulfilling a Senate decree from the Fall/Oct of 12 AD, only upon his actual return for a triumph celebration to Rome in January 13 AD]…It was the start of the Messianic mission in general, which was started by an itinerantly preaching John the Baptist, which (most likely) began in the Fall/Oct of 27 AD. Then John started settled ‘where there was much water’ to baptize and everyone, including then Jesus, went out to him to be baptized…and the various info/facts point to that being in January 28 AD.

            The, actually dubbing, term “Christianaires” is merely a coined/given name to, (as also mentioned in that post), succinctly, descriptively/characteristically refer to the members of the FSZC with the notion that they fundamentally believe that ‘this present world/age is not their (final/ideal) home’. [By the way, I actually had borrowed that name from the name of a Christian Gospel Quartet of the 1990’s]. You can (merely technically of course, not substantively) see it as the coined term given to members of the Church of Latter Saints: i.e. “Mormons”. Most denominations have such characteristic dubbed terms. Even SDAs are somewhat similarly succinctly/truncatingly merely called “Adventists.”

            Also, like I also mention in that post, I am currently the lone member of that New Remnant Church Denomination….but every such Remnant/Reformatory (GC) movements of God have typically begun with one person…Then others, sooner or later, who are convince of its Truths join in….So as the Bible counsels: ‘Do not despise the days of small beginnings’…So I have not yet done any type of formal organizing and gathering, or registering. People now can join by even merely following my blog. They can also join its planned sister projects of the NJK Project and the WBSC Research Institute. So I am right now just waiting for joining members…but the fact is that Truth is not popular, and most people these days do not want to be bothered with any amount of work required to arrive at the accurate, concrete and full truth on a matter. There is much Spiritual indolence, and even indifference out there….But I am confidence from the various promises of God int eh Bible and SOP, that, one natural way (including, -as mentioned in my biographic post: a couple of personal tasks (one Innovative, another one: a Major Legal Case) that I am working on which would entirely fund my projects), or a supernatural other, this Full/True-Righteousness Cause/Movement will indeed „Triumph” (Isa 54)!!….

            If people are not convince to join by having studied out and, guided/confirmed by the Holy Spirit, have seen that the various and many, including New Light Truths that this FSZC is proclaiming are indeed Biblical and valid, then I don’t think, nor do I want them to, merely join because of external organizations and structures. (See the applicable (Eschatological) SOP vision in 1SM 109-111)… I think the SDA Church is the perfect example of attracting, or retaining vacuous (=tare/darnel) members who are really only impressed by the Church because of such external prosperity thinking that this must be the sign that God is still with the SDA Church. I indeed have encountered many SDA “members: who don’t actually believe all of its 28 Fundamental Beliefs (especially the SOP), but still hang around for various peripheral/“external signs” reasons. (In fact, the actual present SDA Worldwide Membership itself may be ca. 40%-50% of what they are “on the books”, (propagandizingly) claiming it to be)…

            • Dear Ron
              I am amazed of your denominational project, since I sincerely believe, that, after all your Biblical and SOP knowledge, this is surely a sinful project. Praise God you did not yet put in practice, and my advice ist o stop where you are now. Ellen White counsel and my pleading is:
              ”The prayer of Christ to his Father, contained in theseventeenth chapter of John, is to be our church creed. It shows us that our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God. Read the whole chapter, verse by verse.”—Manuscript 12, 1899.{3SM 21.1}
              Regarding the aorist in John 2:20, please consult a serious Grammar book, as for example that of Blass and Debrunner https://www.logos.com/product/4225/a-greek-grammar-of-the-new-testament-and-other-early-christian-literature . And please see how this aorist was understood by virtually all translators, including the best ones. I will quote only English versions, but I saw that French, Italian, Spanish and Romanian translations agree.
              This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, (NET, NRS, NAB)
              It has taken 46 years to build this temple. (NIRV, NJB, RSV, NIV, NKJ)
              Forty and six years was this temple in building, (ASV)
              The building of this Temple took forty-six years; (BBE)
              It took 46 years to build this Temple, (CJB, NAB)
              In forty and six years, was this shrine built. (ROT)
              Forty-six years was this temple in building; (NOY)

              • Ron 18/05/2016 at 23:19

                Actually Florin, it is all of my Biblical and SOP knowledge, (as seen in the now ca. 4000 total pages of work on my blog), which has led me to have a fuller understanding of the Truth that has led me to my Denominational+ Project(s)…And I Praise God for that, and am gratefully amazed to God how, as I relate in my bio post, a lifetime of taking the right decision at various key pivotal points since 1995+ has gotten me, and kept me, on this Full/True Right-eousness path. And I am thankful to God for His various confirming Holy Spirit guidance during this journey which has indeed “settled me in these Truths’. (LDE 219.4) So compared to all such Substantive and Spiritual facts that, it is the SDA Church which is indeed (=LDE 217.5-219.3ff) in “complete darkness” as is indeed involved in “the Shaking/Sifting” (EW 270).

                Perfect case in point: You cite EGW’s counsel of John 17…Well if the SDA Church actually heeded practiced that counsel, including when it comes to racial issues, among other capital waywardness, then I wouldn’t have, at least, that issue of difference with them…But they have most resolutely formally and institutionally cherished and enshrined that abominable sin of segregation and racism, all fundamentally derived from selfishness in regards to money and sharing resources. (=contra James 2:1-13) Now that is what is sinful and evil… (Rev 3:22)…Like Ancient Israel, the SDA Church refuses to fully do God’s will and according to His ways, but proudly insist that they should be considered as God’s Church….even in a defiant/“blackmailing” way thinking that God has no other option but to work with them…the “seventh and last” Church…as if Jesus hadn’t already spoken on this in Rev 3:17….

                And also to me, it is the gross lack of exegetical knowledge and competence across the board amongsts SDA leaders, teachers, pastors and evangelists despite all of their capability and resources to obtain and apply the higher education that they can have that is also abominable. (=Ezek 34:1-22 = EW 36.2)..Fact is easily +90% of what SDA claim in defense of their belief do not pass an exegetical or Spiritual testing for either provability, accuracy and/or outright truthfulness and validity, which is why it has taken me at least those 4000 pages of work to arrive at the concrete and accurate Biblical truth. Even that 1995 ATS work on Dan 9:24-27 cited on my blog post which I assume the Church considers its very best since it has not improved on it, only had one point which did not need to be improved, and that significantly so due to crucial outdatedness, or outrightly completely redone due to its fundamental flaw/erroneousness, not to mention the many key points that they did not even engage/discuss. (E.g. the dating of this John 2:20 statement.)

                Unlike the typical indifferent SDA, I do not pick and choose, let alone non-pertinently so, only the parts of the SOP that seem to support the SDA Church, but all that EGW had to say (e.g LDE 59-61) and what she actually saw in (details-wise) withheld vision about the possible, even likely, fate of the Laodicean SDA Church, indeed just as Jesus solemnly warned in Rev 3:17!

                -If you actually have seen a specific section in that BDF work which would apply to the aorist in John 2:20 otherwise, I am not seeing that their explanations of the aorist as being accurately applicable here. Similarly translators have indeed tried to claim an ongoing sense for the aorist in John 2:20, but that is not exegetically supportable. An imperfect tense would easily have been used instead. As modern (versus dated) grammars/works, (i.e. those produce from 1990’s on, which I find more comprehensive and accurate,* involve, what you have in an aorist like the one in John 2:20 is a constantive/(durative) aorist, which moreover, as early manuscript evidence supports (see in Swanson’s MSS work), is augmented in the indicative mood, thus also indicating a past time completion. So it cannot be an ongoing process, but rather an ongoing completed state.

                * See Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (1996) pp.560-561.

                (And as a SDA, you should be aware that this wouldn’t be a first time when most, even all Bible translation have rendered a term inaccurately. E.g. which Bible version have the right translations of: “square” and “decision-making” in Dan 9:25?! They commonly have some form of: “streets” and “moat”.)

                And the specific lexical terms that are used in John 2:20, harmonizing perfectly with the historical account given in Josephus certainly prove that this understanding of that statement in John 2:20 is the most accurate. As the Aorist tense is actually an “undefined” tense it is all of these elements, including such historical realities which contribute to properly translating it.

                -You have no comment/response for what EGW said in DA 144.3-145.1 in regards to ‘“two months” between Christ’s baptism and the feast of Cana’?

              • Florin Lăiu 19/05/2016 at 16:12

                I simply cannot cope with so much controversial stuff. I have no time now to make research in various areas which are beyond my duty, for this time. As regards the true Church, I am glad to serve the SDA Church, that proclaims the three angels message, which is the last warning. Beware of making war with God s special people – much less in the name of SOP.

              • Ron 20/05/2016 at 0:29

                The systemic problem is that no one in the SDA Church wants to deal/resolve these issues…but yet they are (individualistically) “marching on”….It will be the actual enemies of the Church who will bring up such things and will indeed have much support from the Bible and even the SOP to critically/discredit/oppose, and do even worse to, the SDA Church.* It is fitting that God has shown EGW the catastrophic judgement of the SDA Church as a „whirlwind” because, as the Bible says, the SDA Church would have ‘sown the wind’ (Hosea 8:7).

                * It is tellingly, and comical to see that even when SDAs try to do something about these warned of future trials of SDA in mock trials, most times even the answers and resolutions they give their audience to try to prepare them, also does not pass a Biblical validity/accurateness test.

                In regards to the True Remnant Church, it is the Church which fulfill the Bible’s stipulation in Rev 12:17, 14:12. The SDA Church indifferently commits and condones, many factually/Biblically/Spiritually “capital sins/abominations” such as, -as I have already cited: indeed racism & “favoritism”; abortions in its hospitals (cf. here); a revered overarching capitalistic/individualistic approach which is rooted in selfishness; not fulfilling the Gospel’s “Isa 58” mandate (=Matt 25:31-46; WM 23-63ff), among other unbiblical and contra-SOP practices, which indeed violate God’s Sabbath and also other, thus all, of His Ten Commandments. It therefore is not surprising (i.e. Lam 2:9; Ezek 7:26; Pro 29:18) that the SDA Church is indeed in no standing/position to be able to make any light (=Isa 29:11-14) in whatever further SOP Light God has chosen to send her in His own (Ezek 14:1-7ff) way….A Church that does not actually keep God’s Sabbath or Commandments, does not even heed the SOP is claims to believe in and rejects the added “Testimony of Jesus” that God has given her, and also neither has “Faith in Jesus”, nor the “Faith of Jesus” to fully obey His Gospel Mandate (Matt 25:45-46; DA 825.4) just cannot be considered as God’s Remnant Movement….To do so, one would have to do what is proscribed against in Isa 5:20. Pointing out the cherished sins in the Church is not “making war” against it (PK 139.4-142.2), it is giving the trumpet sound of Isa 58:1ff, as also mandated in EGW’s writings….As with the Shaking’s (EW 266-270ff) “sin of Achan”,* the Church cannot “triumph” with such, moreover known/condoned, waywardness and abominations in its midst…..

                * See: 3T 267.3-272.2ff; ST, April 21, 1881 par. 15-25ff)

                …So I would warn you, especially as a part of the SDA leadership, of neglecting to call the attention of your fellow SDA leadership colleagues against keeping to avoid and not engage nor deal with these critical issues, and also ignoring the counsels of the SOP in this regard. That nonchalant and responsibilities approach never ends well. (e.g. EW 36.2)

                …I myself have the concrete proof of most accurate, Biblically fully defensible and harmonizing, as well as Greater Biblical Truths for my years, starting at Andrews of self-sacrificially standing against the tide of nonchalance towards, and indifference to Truth and Right-doing in the SDA Church. So I know that God has Blessed my efforts and I also have the assurance that much more blessings surely are to come!! As is the consistent testimony of Scripture, wherever/whenever His will continues to be done, God will finish what He was started and what/where He has led into….The SDA Church just cannot substantiate such a claim for its present state of doing things….As the SOP had warned of (cf. LDE 59-61), and as corroborated in God’s latest/additional SOP revelations: the [actually „Plan B”] ‘covenant indeed has been broken….’ (15MR 292.3-4)….

                …Notwithstanding, like I said, you can engaged my posting whenever you have the time…

  4. Thanks for the posting Florin.

    I can understand your stance about the claims of prophesying by certain SDAs, however I have to say that the only determinative testing is a proper Biblical one as 1 Thess 5:19-22, among other passages, call for. I’ve done this with several SDAs who have claimed to have had prophetic experiences, (not yet with Sautron and Soo) and I have seen that there experience may indeed be valid, but, as with Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 4, they then lack the knowledge, wisdom and/or experience to properly interpret and rightly apply what they have been shown. (cf. 1 Cor 12:10; 1SM 25.4)

    That would indeed be where the “brethern of experience” should be able to provide an adequate input into such issues, but (similar to the response to a comment from you on another blog that I had posted here): unfortunately the common stance that I have seen in the objections and claimed refutations by SDA Leaders has been just what was also invalidly common in Bible Times and also Church History and that is: ‘if you are speaking against us, our preferred practices and/or the Church,’ then you (defaultly) must not have a True/Prophetic message. Needless to say that Biblical and Church, even SDA History is full of examples of those who took such a stance and were later proven to be gravely wrong. The only valid test and proof is if the message harmonizes with the actual and/or full testimony of Scripture and also EGW’s SOP.

    The Bible (and SOP) is full of templates of what a valid prophetic experience, message and ministry from God either for or against His professed People/Church can be or sound like (e.g. Ezek 14:1-9, Isa 6:8-13|Matt 13:10-17; LDE 59-61; Isa 28:5-13; 29:9-15; Isa 58:1ff; Matt 23; etc) so the only determinative evaluation is to verify if the prophetic message is indeed addressing a fault in the Church and also calling for a Biblical solution/resolution.

    • Dear Ron ! Not everyone who speaks according to the Scripture is a prophet. I am not a prophet, though I honestly want to match the Bible’s teaching. Hopefully, EK, in the best case, does the same. Now if he has indeed supernatural dreams, I cannot check out, and there is no obligation on me to check every person I meet, if he or she has indeed supernatural messages. Maybe someone had revelations for him/her self. If a person claims to have revelations for the Church or for the world, then he must first positively prove his or her divine call, and only after that may have my attention. EGW was first known for her supernatural manifestations, then was accepted gradually by all the SDA leaders and by the whole Church. But Ernie Knoll is not accepted by even the most faithfull Brethren among our leaders. Even some of his own fans deserted him, because of sheer lies. To my knowledge, what has Ernie Knoll to do further is just repent thoroughly for such claims.

      • I certainly can, and do, understand your point of view here, Florin, but, as with most everything, “context” is key to arriving at the proper understanding: E.g. (as seen here (Orthodox) Jews, to this day, reject Jesus’ claim of being the prophesied Messiah because they did not see Him fulfill the great Messianic Triumph prophecies of the OT. Of course Christians know that the reason is because of the unfaithfulness and failing of the Jews in His day. So those grandiose Zionistic prophecies had to be halted and postponed (cf. Mark 1:14-15; Matt 10:23), and then repackaged according to the New Covenant’s theology and scope.

        Like I said, in regards to current prophetic claims amongst SDA’s, I am seeing that the template of Ezek 14:1-7ff most pertinently applies given indeed the various and many “cherished idols and faults” that exist in the Church, and that the leadership prefer to take no action against….Chief of which is the detrimental teachings, theological and practices confusion that is caused by the common practice in the Church being that everyone “zealously, but really jealously” saying and doing according to what is right in their own eyes.

        -Not to rehash this issue here, but the SDA Women’s Ordination issue was, and still is, the most emblematic example of this where even the (supposed) “(theologically) best and brightest” in the Church could not figure out what the Bible/God actually teaches on this issue, but instead claimed that the Bible/God taught 3 different things….And most telling to me, unlike in the very early days of Pioneer SDA’s and EGW, the Holy Spirit did not manifest itself to help them arrive at the lone Biblical Truth here when they came to their claimed Theological Study Committee impasse.

        And such demonstrations lead me to my current observation that the Church indeed is not a similar position as were those honest and sincere Early SDA’s to receive the same type of prophetic assistance and manifestation as was done through EGW. Tellingly enough, EGW had over 2000 prophetic revelations over her 70 years of ministry, yet only (I am “guestimating”) ca. 10-15, if not less, were actually public revelations accompanied by observable signs. The rest were mostly in private dreams while she was sleeping….and I am seeing that the reason is that as the SDA Church then became increasingly unfaithful to the ideal that they should have maintained and arrived at, God correspondingly removed this element of signs from their observation so as not to compel them to do the right thing in regards to God’s will, which, as seen in the many testimonies of EGW, they actually were knowingly/indifferently not doing.

        Same thing applies in the case of Ernie Knoll, and other SDA (half-)prophets, [as I categorize them since they do not have/have not been given, the Fuller Sabbath message]. They were sent by God to a Church that knows that it should be doing way better than it is, but collectively and individually (at various leadership positions), as well as with the membership, is choosing not to. (Cf. Matt 16:1-4). In the Bible, I do not see e.g. Elijah or Jeremiah first having rebellious Israel/Judah then validate through external signs that their prophetic ministry/commission/revelation was valid. All that these audiences had to do was to consider the message and see if it is indeed exposing a sin and calling for the Biblical resolution.

        Ernie Knoll allowed himself to be pressured into trying to fulfill the “signs” request by the Church for his claims, and so made up that “Candace” affair. He has repented of that sin, and so God has continued to use him. (-or else Ezek 14:9 would have applied on him. Discussed here [Post #633], then exegetically here [Post #645]). Knoll was sent to a Church that did not deserve any sign as Ezek 14:1-7 teaches. And the most ironic thing is that, I have yet to come across a claim from Ernie Knoll, from his dreams, which actually is in contradiction to what the SDA Church says they believe, teach or practice. So they actually indeed have no substantive/doctrinal reason to oppose Ernie Knoll’s messages.

        So, since the Church has, among other things, cherished (i.e. tolerated) confusing teachings and practices, then it indeed is quite fitting that God, -as He said He would in such circumstances (Ezek 14:1-7), has sent them a prophet and prophetic messages that are likewise surfacely unclear and confusing. (And it is for similar reasons that the major prophecies in the Bible were in another way, encrypted (Dan 12:3-4, 10)).

        • Please, Ron, stop telling me about Ernie Knoll. If God “still” uses him as a prophet, after the Candace affair, then let anyone who can believe in him. I will not believe. I do not need new prophets for the time. Most prophets of the Bible have been from among the leadership of Israel. Moses, Samuel, Ahia, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Maleachi, John the Baptist have been Levites and most of them priests. David, Isaiah, Zephaniah and Daniel have been of royal house. Of course, there were some prophets whose origin we do not know. EGW was the wife of the GC president, one of the first apostles of our Church. It is not true that prophets were always of humble and antisystem mentality. I am fed up of so many people who are humble, but stupid and proud. I do not need anz prophet to twist the prophecy of Daniel 12. If you know a theologian, or even a humble Bible student who really discovered something new in the prophecy (but in harmony with the old light) I am interested. The only way Ernie Knoll must repent is to forget about dreams. Let him have some visions, and just one in public. Let him stay at least one hour without any sign of breathing. Deal?

          • Getting, especially, SDAs to believe in Ernie Knoll, or any other of those “half-prophets”, is definitely not my mandate. I however find it interesting that SDAs do typically avoid these prophets by merely peripheral and insubstantive arguments and objections…That indeed is not Biblical. (1 Thess 5:19-22). Signs, open visions, High Church position [though Knoll was an Elder, which is an ordained position in the Church], among such peripherals, are not the validating signs of Prophetic validity. So I just can’t ‘agree’ to that as ‘the definitive proof of a prophetic message.’ The Bible of course is clear that even Satan can do signs and wonders, and that to validate a message that is substantively unbiblical. (e.g. Deut 13:1-5; 2 Thess 2:9-13); Rev 16:13-14). It is the substance/teaching/theology of the he message itself that determines if someone has any revelation from God. Ernie Knoll’s messages are not contrary to the Bible and when they seems to be, they are actually merely reflecting what the SDA Church actually believes, teaches and practices…just like Ezek 14:1-7 says…

            Along these same lines, but on the flip side, claiming that being humble and/or anti-system, or even stupid/uneducated, is proof that one is a prophet. God does call the uneducated and illiterate, as were all of the disciples (except Judas), but that is not a prerequisite. God even called two highly educated theologians in William Foy and Hazen Foss before turning to EGW when those two were blocked (Foy), and failed (Foss) in fully carrying out their calling…..And so it would be telling to me that God would have to bypass the entire SDA leadership and turn to a simpleton like Knoll….Yet the educated leadership should then have been able to make light of his messages….

            …I myself am actually just as leery of the people in leadership in the SDA Church who are proudly expressing what Rev 3:17 says. That is much more deceptive as people assume that if they have a college degree, then they must know what they are talking about.

            About Daniel 12, I don’t see what there is new to learn from there. It is quite clear. Dan 11 however is another issue. I have done my own on that prophecy, which harmonizes with all of what the Bible and SOP teaches about the Full Sabbatical/Spiritual themes involved in Final Events.

            Again I am not “pushing” Ernie Knoll, I am instead advocating applying a Biblical evaluation, and one which goes beyond mere externals and signs.

            • Dear Ron,
              As you probably know, there are more SDA ”prophets” besides Knoll. Should I abandon my sacred duties, and sound Biblical research, in order to spend my precious time in reading and evaluating all the prophetic stuff of these people? Is this prophets hunt necessary for my salvation?

              • Ron 14/05/2016 at 10:08

                There indeed, Florin, are more SDA people than just Ernie Knoll claiming to have had prophetic revelations/dreams. The fact is, as I have found out in my comprehensive “testing”/evaluation (but not an exhaustive one, as in examining and analyzing every vision, dream and claim of their), I am seeing that God has concealed key kernels of pivotal truth and/for understandings in their revelations…however, given the great scholarly capability of the Global SDA Church and also the wealth of material in the writings and revelations of EGW, as EGW herself had said, ‘there would be no need of such “Lesser Lights” if the Greater Lights, indeed starting with the Bible’ (3SM 30.4), -and I’ll add EGW’s own SOP was/were being properly utilized…and most importantly obeyed/followed…..But there is always the counsel of 2 Chr 20:20 and 1 Thess 5:19-22….

                …However the duty of evaluating prophets should not lie with one person, nor should it be pulling away anyone from a duty that they already have to do. The Church instead should have a competent dedicated committee which should be charged with properly and exhaustively evaluating such claims. What I have seen as the common practice by the Church is to have certain officials from a local church or Conference consider such claims and leave it to them to decide if the person’s/member’s claim is valid…But that is not adequate.*

                * At the very least, the SDA Church should be doing what the Vatican/Catholic Church methodologically does in regards to systematically vetting claims of Supernatural experiences and Miracles within their denomination. (See e.g. this interview at ca. [06:31-14:10ff] with an official from their department..Of course, as I have been saying Catholics are still wrong despite any signs if/since what they claim from such manifestations is against the Bible (=Deut 13:1-5))…Indeed the most critical thing that the SDA Church could/should do in regards to such evaluations of prophetic claims is having competent people “sit down”/meet with person claiming to have had a seemingly prophetic revelation and properly question them in relating exactly and accurately what they had actually seen in the dream or vision,** because I can see that it is easy for people to conclusorily claim something (typically with EGW-like “I was shown” statements) but actually based on merely their immediate interpretation of what they had actually seen. They may even think, as I myself have seen in interacting with these SDA half-prophets, that not mentioning some detail which they deem to be insignificant is acceptable when in fact that detail can be quite pivotal and significant. So that ‘accurate recording’ first step is quite key.

                ** I did that in 2010 for a vision that my father had had back in 1970.

                And as 1 SM 25.4 states, one person, from their own Spiritual knowledge and experience with God may some something in Scripture or a Revelation, that another person totally misses. I have certainly seen that to be the case in doing my evaluation work…and that may indeed be because, I too, as I variously have related in my blog* have had prophetic visions and dreams which clearly were of a Divine, and along with my Scholastic experience (including going through Andrews), study and work, which has greatly help me to “see the light” in the various experiences and revelations related by these several SDA (half) prophets….*2* And tellingly enough to me, they themselves many times miss the full meaning and implication in what they had been shown….or worse, they derive erroneous claims and applications from their revelations (e.g./esp. Eugene Shubert given their Spiritual, Experiential and/or Scholarly deficiencies.

                * See e.g.:
                http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-first-vision.html#firstvision
                http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/four-living-creatures-throughout-bible.html#19th
                and at the following post’s (Rev 13:13’s) Note #3:
                http://njkproject.blogspot.ca/2015/06/the-battle-of-har-ar-magedon-rev-1312.html

                *2* A latest example, which I have just seen in recent days, and which has convinced me to do an evaluation of Jeanine Sautron’s claim is that back in early January 2016, I had had a vision which, getting right to a pertinent point: involved a Tsunami wave which was sweeping (SouthEast to NorthWest) across the U.S. and which I had, -oddly to me, seen as having begun in the South West tip of the U.S., thus in South Florida, even Key West Florida. From other details in that vision, I came to the Biblical conclusion that such a Great Tsunami could only have been caused by the ‘greatest ever of earthquakes” spoke on in the Seventh Plague (Rev 16:18)…and also that that was ‘the soon Third Woe’ predicted in Rev 11:14. {Cf. this post}. Then this week, in researching Sautron, I came across a vision “#361” she had had [the releasing document is dated Feb 13, 2013] which involved a Tsunami, but one which had been causing islands to disappear. She also saw/was shown that that was the Third Woe. And it has always been various links like this with my own experience, along with the Biblicalness which can be found in the revelations of these other SDAs that has led me to see/think that there indeed may be something Prophetic there…As in the ‘common/concording witness of 2 or 3 people’. So that is why I myself have found it most beneficial to examine such claims….and it actually is the lack of such experience by SDA leaders and the Church collectively, which tends to be defaultly dismissive and marginalize people claiming to have had prophetic experiences….And they are certainly not even ‘holding on to that which is (i.e. they see/know as) good in such experience’ (1 Thess 5:21) but instead wholesally dismissing everything if they think that one thing is wrong. If that “prophet” or anyone else for that matter, says/“reveals” something which is in perfect harmony with the Bible and/or rightly exposes a fault in the Church, then they should indeed “hold fast to it” and heed it….My view is that they then would be able to see the light in the other things which they, most times, see as false.

                I however can save you, and the Church, must time and effort from my evaluation work, with my observation that I see that God is through these various, easily disdainable prophets, indeed applying His template of Ezek 14:1-7ff to a Church which does greatly look for the remanifestation of the SOP in/for what they commonly believe are Last/Final Generation Days and Developments….Well God message to them, indeed to a Church that frankly cannot be graced by God’s ready and clear (=Isa 58:9) favor and presence as were Early SDA, is that is indeed the very best that He will remonstratingly give them in regards to prophetic guidance and, since they effectively have loved confusion, individualism and competitive “zealousness” (really jealousy), then they have to figure out what his message to them is in/through that chosen method of ‘responding to their request for more light’ (Ezek 14:1-3ff).*

                * Corroboratingly enough, in responding to you right now I have paused a ARME 2016 sermon/presentation by Ingo Sorke who was on the SDA Women’s Ordination TOSC committee, and he, like me, had seen that they was something telling odd with the SDA Church from the fact that its TOSC committee had come to a conclusion that ‘the Bible/God taught 3 equally valid but contradictory things in regards to that WO issue.’ It is almost verbatim to what I had said above….See the sermon here [at 26:55-29:34-30:57] …His “diagnosis” however is that it was because the Committee members had not fasted enough, or even at all….But to me, the real issue is that these leading SDAs had not cared to properly do the job that they were educated, trained and/or ordained to do, especially by also having University/Seminary degrees, and that was to, most foundationally, properly/exegetically study out the Bible (and SOP) on this issue…And that all stems from how shoddy the Educational training of SDA’s has been in recent years where they actually have sought to exhaustively comprehend and master Biblical Study Scholarship, even beyond what non-SDA scholars have arrived at. As I have seen in my study, proper exegesis easily and most Biblically resolves this issue….But even in such high level deliberations in the Church, there were many examples of grossly incompetent, but influential, so-called “Bible scholars”, in that TOSC and that skewed and eventually sunk the entire process.
                And also, what they have actually not “fasted” from, is not food, but the pervading spirit of competition instead of actual collaboration in taking on such tasks. Still way too much of the detrimental and wasteful individualism in even such mass gathering study committees. (Sorke cite an example where one committee member wrote an 800-page paper on his view on WO, which was probably indeed fundamentally flawed and wrong.)

                …And the problem in the Church indeed is that the mandate in Isa 58 (see the SOP at Welfare Ministry 28-65ff which is God’s Fuller Sabbath=Law (see EW 33.2) and True Righteousness mandate (= “Medical Missionary Work” (MMW)) is not been at all, or properly/fully heeded in the Church. Indeed many prominent/leading SDA preachers have lately also seen, this Isa 58/MMW deficiency in the Church and called for a reformation there, but at best the work that is now being done as in weekend Health Clinics in large North American cities is actually neither “Medical” (as in “life saving”) nor “Missionary” (as in reaching out to the millions of people in the poorest parts of the world who are needlessly suffering and dying from issues that wealthy (Western) SDAs can do something much more significant (than e.g. ADRA) to help remedy. That all is going to take a Christlike “self-sacrifice” that even SDAs are just not willing to make….But doing such sacrificial Medical Missionary work is what my NJK Project is mandatedly all about….and it indeed is going to necessitate the highest of organizing and cooperation.

                So I do recommend this easy shortcut of: ‘the Church being much more diligent to heed and execute the full counsel that they have already been given in the Bible and EGW’s SOP’, and then they could make accurate sense and sound judgement about additional light…or actually would not even need it at all….And being able to walk in that fullest/fullness of Light is, as the whole of Matthew 25 teaches, all what is ‘vital to one’s salvation’ (Matt 25:45-46; Rev 6:16-17|EW 15.2; DA 825.4)…

                Sorry for the lengthy response, but there indeed is much background and context involved in this important/beneficial issue….

              • Ron 14/05/2016 at 10:45

                – By the way Florin, -I had forgotten to mention in the comparison of my vision with a similar one by Sautron in regards to involving a Massive Tsunami: if the Caribean geological Plate fault zone/line which had caused the massive 2010 Haiti 7.0M Earthquake which may have killed as many as ~316,000 people, produces another even greater Earthquake, a massive Tsunami which causes all of the Carribean Islands to ‘move away/disappear’ (=Rev 16:20) on its Southward flow, can also, on its Northward flow, move up that Eastern Atlantic corridor and start flooding in, and sweeping across, the United States from indeed its Key West/South Florida Area…..

                That all said about this vision, I am actually seeing/understanding that the elements in these revelations are, at least for present times, actually symbolic, just as I have studyingly seen -(see here+here) that the language of various naturalistic destructions in/of the 7 Plagues, including what is said in the Seventh/Last, can actually have symbolic implications.

              • Ron 15/05/2016 at 8:00

                -I just noticed a typo which may be confusing, here’s the corrected sentence with correction in bold/underlined:

                “And that all stems from how shoddy the Educational training of SDA’s has been in recent years where they actually have not sought to exhaustively comprehend and master Biblical Study Scholarship, even beyond what non-SDA scholars have arrived at”.

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